“Facts are mutable…”

Actually they are not: if they are indeed facts.

Your case is based on 800 pages and knee-jerking and other what-not modern interpretations of the past. One can easily understand the nature of man from documents of that time period…if you look, as opposed to the meanderings of negro-centrics wishing to piss in the pool and propagandize modern thought. And fuel the extremists and shit-disturbers of BLM and such. I cite that you are one such individual. Are you?

In the words of Morgan Freeman, if we are going to stop racism and hate, which are fueled by your rhetoric we need to “Stop talking about it.” And get on the business of treating each other equally. And really changing the world to the better.

I don’t suppose if TJ knew the meaning of happiness either, simply his own happiness. And that I know he struggled with it, from the documents and letters of that time. What he was speaking to was the vitality of that in the making of a quality of a life. The three pillars, he knew were vital to that end.

“Actually, Washington did, or at least he provided in his will that his slaves…” GC

I stand corrected…

Splitting hairs are we, well, here’s a few facts my young friend:

Jefferson felt the black slave was like holding…

“a wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go.”

This was exactly what Jefferson felt about slavery. I express again that he inherited a plantation at ’21’. A difficult thing to deal with for such a young person, a dilemma of extreme proportions to say the least when all your life and those that you wish to free are fully supported by that which you hate. The negro could be neither let go, or kept safely. Even though he cared about the well-being of those slaves, and I might say took care of them on that plantation. They hated him because he was the ‘master’. TJ was institutionalized on his own plantation life.

Jefferson felt to truly free the slave, all involved had to agree to their freedom, all had to agree to abolition.

“In 1778, he drafted a Virginia law that prohibited the importation of enslaved Africans.”

Much to his distress, enacting this law did nothing, for slavery in Virginia became very profitable. And in fact increased substantially. And Virginia was exporting slaves.

“These views were radical in a world where unfree labor was the norm.”

“Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty.”

“hideous blot,…”

All these quotes, allow us into the soul of a conflicted man. A man determined with his great friend John Adams to change the world. To bring into existence the reality for happiness, individuality and true freedom for all. At the same time hideous forces both evil and masonic work towards his and John Adams, and independence’s down fall. Spies abound, even from outside the country in foreign lands.

“BTW, I don’t shop at Wal-marts, and nobody has “pumped” my gas for decades. Do you really live in the USA? I try not to exploit others, and I try not to be exploited. That sounds simple, but it’s not.” GC

You don’t eat food; you don’t buy clothing; you don’t eat vegetables picked by oppressed Mexican labor; you don’t drive a car, or purchase a thing in any store. Or play on a gadget made by tiny hands. Which are all brought to you on the back of slavery. Slaves that cost a few dollars a month. Ah but it is all subjective…hm.

I propose that you are one of the triggered by words such as nigger, or savage, or any of the dirty things you can dig up about the past, and throw in the face of those who seek real and substantial change. I question you, who is Peter Carr?

There are much better things to put you time to that tarnishing a freedom fighter. None of us are perfect, none of us are without a blemish. But when seen from its context, Tee Jay was a courageous man for his time.

Perhaps the moderns are more to be scrutinized by you and your great intellect. How about J D Rockefeller, or Ziggy B, or for that matter any of the top one tenth of one percent. Yah see the plantation is still here, despite the working of Tee Jay, and we are all part of that now. Better to fight the devil you know and change that world to the better, that fight ghosts in your heart. Tee Jay was on our side GC… really. Stop with the dirt, your much more intelligent than that. I can tell.

You wish to end the discussion… ok it’s ended. I’m Irish I need the last word…lol.

In “fact,” for the past couple of weeks, amid a lot of busy-work, I’ve been reading Fawn M. Brodie’s 811-page book (with index and footnotes), “Thomas Jefferson: An Intimate Biography.” I think the book is fairly balanced–good & bad about TJ: a strong intellect, fine writer, etc. But, a fair bit of negatives, too. On page 293, one reads:

“Sally Hemings’ third son, Madison, born at Monticello in 1805, wrote explicitly of the beginnings of his mother’s relationship with Jefferson:

“‘Their stay (my mother’s and Maria’s) was about 18 months…. During that time my mother became Mr. Jefferson’s concubine, and when he was called home she was ‘enciente’ by him…. Soon after their arrival, she gave birth to a child, of whom Thomas Jefferson was the father.”

Brodie continues: “Actually Sally Hemings was in Paris not 18 but almost 26 months…. [She] was between 14 and 15 when she arrived, and between 16 and 17 when she returned to Virginia.”

Brodie wrote her book in 1974, and it is considered one of the “definitive” biographies about Jefferson. She tries to put a positive spin on TJ’s relationship with Sally:

“For any slave child at Monticello Jefferson was a kind of deity. Since her own father John Wayles had died in the year of her birth, Jefferson was perhaps as close to being a parental figure as anyone she had ever known.”

Frankly, I don’t think Brodie succeeds with her “positive spin,” and she may have besmirched TJ even more. John Wayles, btw, was Jefferson’s friend and neighbor. In addition to the usual bit of slave-holder’s miscegenation, Wayles fathered Jefferson’s wife, Martha (who died after childbirth in the 10th year of their marriage). Wayles was very rich and Martha inherited most of his money, and the already wealthy TJ became one of the wealthiest (and most influential) men in Virginia when he married Martha. (Despite all that money, which never seems to be enough for some people (!), TJ and Martha appear to have been “happy” with each other!).

I will no longer continue this thread. My work is widely available at fine sites on the Web. In “fact,” I don’t think I’ve ever written at such length about TJ. I’m just a guy who raises questions about “official narratives”–the kind of myths and memes that shapes our lives. Jon Rappoport is an excellent writer and I thank him for the questions he raises and the space he makes available for discussion.

Read ‘The Jefferson Lies’ by David Barton, and then make your accusations.

It may be a “subjective” question, but it’s quite important. Socrates walked around Athens asking people about the meaning of happiness, justice, truth. Asking those kinds of questions can get a man sentenced to a bout of hemlock-drinking!

There are several points I could argue here, but let me tackle just a couple: TJ did not free his slaves upon his death. (Actually, Washington did, or at least he provided in his will that his slaves should be set free upon the death of his wife, Martha. This might have made for some uneasy nights for Martha after George had met his Maker!) TJ, like so many of the Southern elite, passed on his wealth of slaves to his “posterity”–his daughter.

I don’t think I have to define “slavery.” As one of the Supreme Court Justices once declared about porn: “I know it when I see it!”

BTW, I don’t shop at Wal-marts, and nobody has “pumped” my gas for decades. Do you really live in the USA? I try not to exploit others, and I try not to be exploited. That sounds simple, but it’s not.

As for “warmongers” among the Indians–there were probably some; one finds evil and treachery everywhere, among all people. As for “white” people who were here long before the “red” people crossed the Siberian land bridge–I need to see a lot more evidence. As for the exploited Irish, no doubt; I do believe most of that came later–after the potato famine sent the Irish packing. (Another myth we might wish to examine at some length is the one about the Civil War being fought to free the Black man. If that was a popular cause, why were there draft riots in NYC, mostly led by recent Irish immigrants, when scores of free blacks were hanged and murdered in the streets? But…, these are very different issues, are they not?)

Jefferson impregnated his child-slave, Sally Hemming, when she was 17. One of his nefarious acts as president was to sign the “Indian Removal Act” (which Jackson enforced, resulting in the “Trail of Tears” and over 7,000 dead Indians along that wintry trail). If we are ever to have real “independence” in this world, we shall have to get beyond our cherished myths about our “great men” and our “high principles.”

You had me upon till “happiness” then your argument fell apart. Happiness is, a subjective term. Very difficult to define.

Firstly, Logic followed to its means and end, bears the fruit we call wisdom.

Jefferson was a product of his time, as you are yours; albeit he dared to dream of a nation greater than the colonies. Greater than what he had witnessed, than what he knew. He was a man who convicted to his principles and understood which battles to fight, and which to leave for later. In his aim to free slaves he indebted himself to such a point, that, his slaves were sold after his death to pay the debts of Monticello. He freed a number of his own slaves in his lifetime, those he knew could take care of themselves. And Monticello provides the daily needs and shelter of all who worked there, to free them outright would be to cause their destruction in those times. And bring contempt from those he wished to bring to his ideas. He even devised a plan for the government to purchase slaves as children and raise them as freemen, in order to end slavery in America. The declaration of independence is in reference to ‘ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL’, and he meant that precisely. Jefferson was greatly troubled by the plight of the slave. You have remember he inherited Monticello at 21, a fully functioning plantation. To free all his slaves would have been to bring ruin on all involved.

Tell me, do you pity the slaves yourself, and try to free them, those that work in china and other slave places, when you enter Wal-Mart or some such for your daily needs; gadgets and widgets, bobbles and bangles; or the fellow who pumps your gas, or the fast food third-worlders or darkly figure who fetches your viddles at lunch.

First define slavery.

‘Savages’, and what would ‘you’ call those Mohawk/Seneca/Cherokee/Ojibwa/Sioux mercenaries who were hired to divide and separate the settlers. Whom far from their normal occupancy; the Ojibwa, Mohawk and Sioux were slavers and warmoungerers to the extreme. And they were hired because they could precisely do the worst. Which was to bring hell down on the settlers heads. These ‘Savages’ were very good at their work, and would have done it otherwise. In fact in a lot of cases the British would rein back an eager persecuter.

And in the case of ‘their’ land, evidence/ fact and artefacts; those that are not confiscated and reburied. Shows that those who followed the land bridge were not the first here, but usurped lands from others, the Solutrean and the Magdalenians. And the more caucasian tribal immigrants who arrived from the Atlantic side, tens of thousands of years before Clovis. I sympathize in the aboringinal plight. But strangely modern native culture suppresses that knowledge and artefact from Pre-Clovis. Why do you think that is?… could it be that their white. And that would undermine, ‘first people status.

Now there is, greater mention of African slaves, granted their plight was terrible. You neither mention the Native, Irish, Chinese (whom I must say were less than all other slaves, lesser than dog in the eyes of most whites), half breeds, prisoners, pow’s, mulatto (There is a great number of mullatos in african slave numbers; are they black or are they white.) from England and Europe and various others that were enslaved and indentured in North America. The Irish slave alone out-numbered the black slave two to one…do the research. Please prove me wrong.

“But, we also need the right Information! (Orwell said, “Whoever controls the information controls the imagination.) ” -Gary Corseri

……….I partially agree in this statement, maybe you could listen to your own argument.

In the end, you will find that Jefferson was great man. And your argument, because of context and a great period of time and propaganda, is flawed and only ad hominem, driven by the many faulted ideals of modern social justice.

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/the-irish-slave-trade-forgotten-white-slaves/

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/225521/inconvenient-truths-about-race-slavery-jack-kerwick

It tries to argue that the only thing really driving American independence was being pro-slavery. It equals democracy with slavery, but it advocates socialism. It makes a slight out of the Iroquois having a democratic system first, as if it was good for them, but bad when Americans did it (then it was suddenly slavery), also acting as if democratic forms of government weren’t long ago invented in the Mediterranean as well or that using a prior form of government is theft in some way (is this the cultural appropriation we hear so much about?).

It neither mentions or seems to recognize any rights or principles. Democracy is not the greatest thing in the world, it’s often not respecting the individual’s choice and dignity, but socialism rejects them categorically. Slavery is anti-free market, it is very unproductive, yet I believe this author would link them if asked. A very small percentage of people owned slaves in the Colonial and later periods. It would be like going around today treating everyone like they must represent the Corporate Tech Giants because they live in America.

In its main subject area, it treats African countries as if they are run from Washington, D.C., and have no responsibility, conscience, or power. It’s the West’s fault that they have democracy, that they keep it, and also that when elections are held it leads to genocide and tribal conflict. I don’t know why they wouldn’t see that they could alter their own governments to avoid cultural issues like tribal violence, or implement socialism as a lot of democracies have done, if that is a better idea.

I would suggest before jumping into a Big Glob of socialist Love, it is more important to make sure our senses of Logic, Individuality, Creativity, Productivity, and Awareness are finely tuned. The best plans for our own lives are not written by people who have never met us, and those plans only become our reality if we fail to make our own plans and act on them.

Jefferson highlights the double standards of the “people” (as a network of competing individuals) and the government (their representatives).

The government will constantly say the laws are made “for the holistic benefit of the people” (nothing to see here) and individuals will scream “tyranny” (catch me if you can).

It’s a non-starter. You’re on your own.

Best
OT